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I understand the problem because I have also been confronted with it. At first we fixate on these brokerage fees, with good reasons. Then the portfolio grows and one day we find ourselves with few transactions (if we are buy&hold) and deposit fees that eat up part of the dividend income. Which is unbearable. So we are stuck, with this unfair levy, even without doing anything, and low brokerage fees but which are a pain in the neck. So, when you think about transferring your securities to another provider, you realize that it is a real organized theft for each position you hold. And of course the lower the brokerage fees, the more positions you have...
The team are not stupid. They know that with cheap brokerage fees they will attract you like rats with cheese at the bottom of a cage.J’ai contacté Postfinance pour avoir plus de renseignements par rapport au point du règlement de dépôt relatif aux valeurs étrangères, que toutes les banques semblent appliquer maintenant. Je vous redis dès que j’ai du neuf.
Concernant Interactive Brokers, j’ai regardé un peu leur offre et je remarque des frais cachés : s’il n’y a pas de transaction pendant un mois ils facturent USD 10 par mois… de plus ils facturent encore une taxe par marché auquel on est inscrit. Rien que pour les US c’est USD 10 par mois si les transactions sont inférieures à 30 USD. A chaque autre marché, c’est une autre taxe et pour certains c’est pas donné.
Bref, vraiment pas très cool pour des investisseurs buy&hold… Cela me refroidit passablement je dois dire.
Encore une fois, et je me répète, il ne faut pas se focaliser sur les frais de transaction, surtout si on investit à long terme. Il y a plein de frais cachés, comme les frais de dépôt, les taxes punitives pour les traders peu actifs et le paiement à la carte d’accès aux marchés, même de base.Yes, that's exactly what I've been doing for many years and it works very well. No need for a tax statement, the portfolio status as of 12/31 and the supporting documents for coupons/dividends are enough. Never had a problem with the tax authorities. And then it takes time the first year to put the securities in the software provided by the tax authorities, but since we can reuse the data for the following year, there are only the portfolio changes to enter (and they are few in number as far as I'm concerned). Note that on VStax for example the dividends received and the value as of 12/31 of each security are updated automatically for a large majority of securities which is very appreciable.
I had also seen this article at the time. I repeat, you should not focus on transaction fees. When you invest in buy & hold you must also and above all see the hidden fees such as deposit fees or cash transfer fees. I was not able to find these indications on Corner Trader… that is already a bad sign.
All banks and brokers provide a tax statement. You just have to ask them, but it is usually quite expensive.
I just realized that for Valais I provided the 2011 reference. Here is the link for 2013:
http://www.vs.ch/Data/formule/DS_10/fml_0000001963.pdf
You will find the gross yield, the non-recoverable foreign tax portion and the additional US withholding tax indicated there.
Gross returns not subject to withholding tax must be included in the tax return, in the Statement of Securities. If you want to declare them of course…
As I said, for all this crap the easiest thing is to use the software provided by the tax authorities. Otherwise it's a gas factory...So: everything is played out during the annual taxation. There are one or two forms to fill out to request a refund of the flat-rate imputation (other countries) or the additional USA withholding.
For Valais: http://www.vs.ch/Data/formule/DS_10/fml_0000001963.pdf (US+other countries)
For the canton of Vaud:
http://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/organisation/dfin/aci/fichiers_pdf/DA-1_2013.pdf (other countries)
http://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/organisation/dfin/aci/fichiers_pdf/R-US_164_2013.pdf (USA)
I haven't found any for Geneva.All this is heavy and complex. To avoid racking your brains, it is best to use the software provided by the cantonal administrations; the forms for refunding withholding tax, additional USA withholding tax and flat-rate imputation are done automatically.
For Geneva: http://www.getax.ch/support/telecharger
For Vaud: http://www.vd.ch/themes/etat-droit-finances/impots/vaudtax/vaudtax-2013/telecharger-vaudtax-2013/
For Valais: http://www.vs.ch/Public/public_fml/fml_list.asp?Language=fr&MenuID=31859&Code=VSTAX13&ServiceID=10&Color=10An interesting link from the tax administration of the canton of Bern:
In any case, I tried to buy NSH and KMP on Postfinance and Migros Bank, but it was impossible. Apparently it's the same for KMP on Swissquote.
For point 3, yes, it's scary if it's confirmed. If no one can tell us, I'll write to the bank to find out more. In this case, it would mean that it's no better to deal in foreign shares through a Swiss bank than through a foreign one... and the answer is obvious from IB, apart from the hidden costs.Interesting, I'll think about it.
1) If I've understood correctly, there are still hidden costs to be taken into account, especially when you're looking at a long-term, dividend-oriented investment with a view to drawing a pension. I'm thinking in particular of a tax of CHF 11 per money transfer, which is necessary if you want to live off your dividends. It's worth noting that Postfinance (I'm always advertising them, I know, and yet I have no commercial connection with them) offers EVERYTHING free of charge. But then, you can't buy MLPs.
2) And of course I'm wary of taking my money out of Switzerland, not only out of a patriotic reflex but also out of concern that shares domiciled in Switzerland are the property of the depositor, which is less obvious outside the country.
=> So hidden fees and security of deposited securities, I still wonder.3) All this leads me to another question. Digging through the regulations of my various Swiss custody accounts, I always come across a sentence along the following lines: "Securities that are exclusively or mainly traded in countries other than Switzerland are in principle deposited outside Switzerland, or transferred there at the customer's expense and risk if they have been deposited elsewhere. If deposited abroad, the Securities are subject to the laws and customs of the place where they are held. If the foreign law applicable to them makes it difficult
or impossible the return of Securities deposited abroad or the transfer of their proceeds of realization, the Bank is only obliged to provide the Customer with the right to the return of the Securities or the corresponding payment, if this right exists and is transferable".
=> So even with a deposit in Switzerland, believing to benefit from the protection of securities which are the property of the depositor according to the legislation in force, it could well be that according to this regulation our US securities are in fact deposited in the United States, or elsewhere, without being able to benefit from the protection of the depositor... Any idea or experience in this regard?If not, does anyone know of a bank in Switzerland that allows MLPs to be traded?
This makes me think that IB may be the solution for acquiring MLPs. You can't buy them via Postfinance, Migros Bank or Swisquote. But the account opening procedure seems a bit complicated, doesn't it?
It's done, I added Thales to the EX-US: http://www.dividendes.ch/ex-us-international-etfs-and-dividend-stocks/
I don't know Interactive Brokers. It's true that at first sight their offer seems interesting for the brokerage fees. Personally, I don't bother with that, because for me, transactions are so rare that even if I have to pay a few francs or even tens of francs extra on an order, it's really insignificant. What is important, however, are the more hidden fees charged by banks and brokers, such as deposit fees, fund withdrawal/transfer fees, etc. With Postfinance, apart from the additional fees, I don't have to pay anything. With Postfinance, apart from transaction fees, everything is free. Besides, I know these financial intermediaries, I know what they're worth. A little less confidence in foreign players, though.
As for the tax risk mentioned by Armand, I assume he meant if these securities are not declared to the Swiss tax authorities.ETFs on the Swiss stock exchange are limited. I place my orders either through Postfinance or Migros Bank. Between the two, I can almost always find what I'm looking for. Sometimes, for the more "exotic" stocks that can't be traded on either side, I ask Migros Bank to open a position, which they almost always do, except for MLPs.
In fact, it's mainly because this strategy is slightly different from GDG, and doesn't look for stocks with monstrous track records. US exes are first and foremost diversification and hedging instruments for GDGs, while of course bringing in valuable growing dividends. In fact, it's best to combine the two worlds, or even the four (with smokings & drinkings dividends and REITs&MLPs).
